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2023 Event 1: Hillingdon, Sunday 9th April |
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Kim 
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Joined: 13 April 2018 Location: Middle Earth Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
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 Posted: 11 April 2023 at 11:35pm |
Because they've done more laps (this may be less obvious if you've not got "Show every lap" selected).
Edited by Kim - 11 April 2023 at 11:46pm |
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johnlucian
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Joined: 04 July 2010 Location: Nottingham Status: Offline Points: 111 |
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Posted: 11 April 2023 at 11:50pm |
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In the past the speed was always the defining number for the finishing order. Because we could have done another lap at the same average speed if the leader have not stopped us doing so. Looks at previous years results. It is not our fault that we were not allowed to do another lap because our speed was faster.
I am not so bothered of the results, but you will have the same problems in future races if you do not consider average speed as the finishing order. |
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John Lucian
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Kim
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Posted: 12 April 2023 at 1:39am |
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It was, but that was just the first algorithm I came up with in 2019 based on a non-existent understanding of cycle racing[1] that I've had the niggling feeling might be simple, obvious and wrong ever since - so I wouldn't read anything into that. I was working on the principle that The Nice Mr Sitarski knows a hell of a lot more about scoring races than I do, and that if I could just find a way to feed accurate lap times for both groups into his algorithms at once, everything would be correct, without having to worry about Excel munging the data. (While also making things considerably easier for the time team, and more transparent fr the racers.) I'm not sure if there *is* a fair way to combine the results of multiple criterium races? We really would be better off doing races with a fixed time or number of laps, which is what the software is designed for. But I don't think that actually solves this particular problem, as a rider who manages to cross the line just before the clock ticks over will still get to do another lap. (Is this fair? It doesn't seem unreasonable that getting to the finish line sooner is a Good Thing when trying to win a race...) I don't know what to do now. This evening I've been working on fixing bugs in and improving the performance of the video capture software (which is a CPU hog, and was getting the windows 'Not Responding' treatment at Hillingdon), so I'll finish that, but I'm not touching any more ranking/scoring stuff until I know what the algorithm is actually supposed to be. I've tried searching the web, but merging races isn't a thing that normal clubs do. (I think they're more strict about dividing people into different categories, but that's a bucket of spiders even if everyone was on a boring UCI compliant upwrong for every race.) [1] I like riding bikes. Sometimes I like going fast. And I have an unreasonable tolerance for ****ing around with computers. But I have approximately zero interest in sport, and I appear to have let the Club down badly by not appreciating this was a problem.
Edited by Kim - 12 April 2023 at 1:54am |
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AlanGoodman
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Club Chairman Joined: 04 March 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 8036 |
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Posted: 12 April 2023 at 3:04am |
You bloody well haven’t!!! Nobody has put more time and effort into the club than you over the last few years, behind scenes and at pretty much every event. What’s happened are a lot of changes from the way the old manual system and race spreadsheet used to handle stuff. It’s so much better and easier for everyone now. This is a change that some won’t like but 99% won’t be bothered - none of us are finely honed athletes. For most of us our events are social gatherings as much as races. For hosting the world championships it may need another look but that’s over a year away. For our purposes it’s absolutely fine as it is. Many thanks for all you do. It is very much appreciated. Alan |
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AlanGoodman
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Posted: 12 April 2023 at 6:52am |
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The other thing to remember is that although we’re all in the overall results as if it were one big time trial, everyone is actually just racing with the people around them (often in different classes). We’ll never know if the people doing 21MPH in the slow race might have done 22MPH if they’d been in the fast race and latched on to the 22MPH group. No software will ever account for that.
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legs_larry
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Joined: 09 March 2005 Location: London Town Devine Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Posted: 12 April 2023 at 9:33am |
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Wot Al said ^^^^.
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====================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds |
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Kim
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Joined: 13 April 2018 Location: Middle Earth Status: Offline Points: 1256 |
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Posted: 12 April 2023 at 11:40pm |
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Having given the matter due consideration, I'm of the opinion that:
CrossMgr's default behaviour of ranking riders by number of laps and then finish time is both the simplest option (we don't need to write any new code) and likely the fairest (to do more laps you have to ride faster and cross the line earlier, rather than holding back to game your average speed). It's probably even some sort of 'correct', given that the software's been used for years to time far more serious cycling events than ours. If the CompSec/committee/AGM comes to a consensus that the ranking algorithm should be something else, I'll endeavour to implement it. Just don't ask me to justify why it works the way it does. I didn't get where I am today by wasting quality geeking-around-with-computers time learning about sports. (Note, however, that queries of the "Are you sure those lap times are correct?", "I thought I was a lap up on Foo" or "Why does 2.34 seconds appear to round up to 2.5 seconds in the HTML output?" nature are always welcome. I want the results to be as good as they possibly can be, and that means tracking down dodgy tag reads, checking the camera output and investigating potential software bugs, all of which benefit from your real-world input. I wouldn't have spotted the start wave offset precision problem if it hadn't been for John's query above, for example.) Obviously merging the results of two race groups is always going to be artificial, as riders aren't physically on the track together. I think it's still useful to have an indication of relative performance, albeit flawed, rather than just adding up points - particularly for those of us who are more interested in construction or beating personal bests than the championship. Meanwhile, I seem to have made some worthwhile improvements to CrossMgrVideo, and fixed a couple of minor bugs. I can't get it to go 'Not Responding' by feeding it simulated race data, which is promising, though in raw tag read throughput terms nothing compares to a couple of dozen riders and assorted unattended helmets loitering around the finish line during a race... Edited by Kim - 13 April 2023 at 12:50am |
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AlanGoodman
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Posted: 12 April 2023 at 11:50pm |
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Perfect.
Thanks Kim. 🙂 |
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DavidKK
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Posted: 07 May 2023 at 9:23pm |
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Thanks to the long weekend I've managed to find time to sort out a few pictures for you https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjAC8PC. David
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russellbridge
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Joined: 21 October 2013 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 843 |
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Posted: 08 May 2023 at 12:19pm |
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Amazing set of photos as per usual David. That one of me and Kim sprinting for the line is a cracker. Likewise the Bath photos too... Russ ps David are you OK if I post a like to these two sets of photos on the Facebook BHPC group?
Edited by russellbridge - 08 May 2023 at 12:26pm |
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russellbridge wrote: