Seem to have a 20" wheel with a dragging SA 70mm hub brake ?

Does anyone have any unused wheels with hubs with or without back plates to give me some kit to swap over and try and diagnose/fit it ?

regards Paul

Hi Paul .…………

Give me a call and I can talk you through a check list to discover the gremlin 

Regards Kevin D

Kevin

That’s a very generous offer however...

I have a confession to make ?

The wheels I am having problems with were bought from you in the first place

IIRC they were removed from an tadpole trike that shuddered  & shimmy when braking and so were replaced and I bought the wheels from you as I intended to fit them to the rear of a Delta and so did not expect to encounter those problems ?

I had some NOS back plates and hubs not laced into wheels and am trying to combine the two.

I started a thread here about the problem ?

https://www.forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php/10669-SA-drum-brake-dragging-long-and-puzzling-results?highlight=" rel="nofollow - https://www.forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php/10669-SA-drum-brake-dragging-long-and-puzzling-results?highlight=

and continued it here :-

https://www.atomiczombie.com/forum/threads/my-life-with-python-trikes-mk1-mk1-5-mk2.33/page-2#post-354" rel="nofollow - https://www.atomiczombie.com/forum/threads/my-life-with-python-trikes-mk1-mk1-5-mk2.33/page-2#post-354

So one hub/backplate combination works ok with the weight of the valve making the wheel swing backwards and forwards till the valve stops at the lowest point and the other grabs and stops suddenly with the valve anywhere  ...

So today not being an engineer I did this :-

Tapped one bearing in as far as it would go , added the axle and the inner anti-crush tube then put the end of my 6" steel ruler over the end of the anti-crush tube and convinced myself that the ruler was not touching the outer race lip any of the way around ?

So made another anti-crush tube filed it to a fraction shorter than the original and convinced myself that the ruler was now touching the outer race lip all the way around ?

Bolted it up hand tight and the wheel now swung to and fro before settling hurrah I here you shout ?

So I set about making these permanent [ from the point of view of being able to ride it ] and added washers and 12mm lock-nuts to the 12mm bolt axles.

Ok now I am really pi**ed off even tightening the lock-nuts till the washers were only just gripped NEITHER wheel now swings to and fro before stopping they both stop rather suddenly !!!

So wasted all this time for absolutely no improvement at all ?

regards Paul

Call me anyway ……….the issue is not the wheels 

Assuming you have fitted new wheel bearings or used the old with "rumblings" ?? 

Then made up your own spacers ??? 

The DIY spacers are suspect ….and the method of fitting !"£$%^ 

I will await your call 

Regards Kevin D 

A few key facts regarding the SA70 drums provided as service notes  by ICE

 ( I'am a UK Premier ICE Trike Dealer and have the factory approved and designed measuring tooling )

Pulsing Sturmey Archer Drum Brake Correction
 
If you have a drum brake trike which pulses when riding the trike at a low speed when one brake is applied then it is likely that the drum shell is oval.
 
In measuring drum shells it is our experience that all shells are oval to a certain degree and work fine provided that the total ovality does not exceeded approximately 0.07mm. Above 0.07mm the pulsing becomes gradually more noticeable and a wheel with ovality of  0.15mm would feel completely unacceptable.
 
Some of this ovality is due to manufacturing tolerances of the hub shell (there is actually a tolerance of  0.15mm according the S.A. drawings!) and some is due to distortion of the hub shell due to spoke tension. It is surprisingly easy to effect the ovality by small changes to the spoke tension.

Kevin

Will try and catch you tomorrow.

Problem is not pulsing !

I have the hub back plates that take the QR axles , although I don't have the QR axles and intend using 12mm bolts and lock nuts.

On the QR back plat it is possible to remove the axle housing and screw it to the frame with none of the innards present ? then bolt the wheel into it.

One wheel spins relatively freely and will swing to and fro till it stops valve at lowest point.

The other wheel stops after far fewer revolutions and will stop with the valve in any position ? 

puzzled ...Paul

Have a close look at a spares kit offered by ICELETTA of Germany 

You should spot a pair of HARD metal "spacers " the modern versions have a rebate to assist location into the back plate .

https://shop.icletta.com/en/wheels-hubs-rims-mudguards/sturmey-archer-drum-brake-complete-set.html

 Earlier versions also used by ICE during their custom built period have a slight cone but no rebate .

So can be fitted the wrong way causing a great nashing of teeth and the brakes don't like it either .

Your hit and miss pull your hair out and scratch your head method is probably forcing the drum too far onto the backplate …….hence the wheel does not want to revolve ? 

You also risk damaging the bearing seals if the home made spacers used are thin wall tubing .

Practical Cycles sell a variety of genuine SA spacers for 99p each plus PP 

Fitted correctly it should work and well worth the cost before you write off the wheels .

ICE are selling a pair of brand new but old stock axles and nylocs for £5 inc vat via EBAY 

Hope that helps with probably a simple solution to your woes ……..Kevin D 

Kevin

The parts you are steering me towards do not fit my back plates !

Mine do not look like the one shown above !

I assume the Ice axles are the ones in this drawing and the spacers are parts 4a or 4b ?

Mine look like this :-

Now can you see the two brake assembly’s have different part numbers ?

Upper drawing either HSB 530/531 or HSB 509/510

Where as the lower drawing HSB 514/515

I am beginning to think that they can't be mixed ?

Also the part I am playing with is shown in drawing 2 but has no part number ? SA call it a bush IIRC

regards Paul

ps nothing is being written off yet ! nothing worse than spinning the wheels on the work bench

You could consider not using the current Quick release axle fittings ?

The back plates your attempting to use are for wheelchairs .

SA do not expect WC users to hit speeds above 10mph !"£$

However if you settled for a "solid" bolt on thru axle system with the SA spacer 

You would resolve your current problems .

The ICE axles on Ebay would be perfect and of course tested as "fit for purpose" .

You would not want your wheels passing you by on the next hill because you fitted a gash bolt .

So for £10 out of your piggy bank …...you could complete the "Wheelie" parts of your project .

If you need Quick release solid thru- bolt axles ICE offer them for £26 a pair ( I have them in stock) 

Hear from you later on Tuesday and I can explain the finer points  

Regards Kevin D 

Roy

It was testing after the bearings were changed that brought the problem to my attention as I have not yet ridden the wheels myself.

Can you give some idea what you consider to be ' far superior ' bearings ? and where to get them from please.

It is possible the ones I have used may only be SA quality 

regards Paul

Paul, I bought half a dozen from a bearing specialist shop on the Rochester Way. I used yellow pages to look them up, which tells you how long ago it was. I think this is them now.  http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/  Best to ask them about which ones are high quality and they recommend for the application.

Roy

Roy

Thanks.

Paul

As you can see I cannot use the conventional back plate mounts without extensive alteration to the rear frame ?

 

regards Paul

Roy

Roy

thanks will investigate

Paul

Hi all

I think with all the help I received an update is in order ?

So we now have this :-

Luggage area built and SA brakes deployed after buying Kevin's suggested parts.

Now I have another problem with them ? I have the brakes cabled up however one is good and one dud ?

So new parts are  :- levers - cables/inners/outers - back plates

Second hand parts are :- wheels

I bought a pair of new SA brake levers [ to get a parking brake :-) ] one of which came with a cable.

I fitted new levers and the supplied cable and another also new cable[ source unknown [ may be Asda ?]].

One brake has adjusted up fine and already on a dry road without the lever hitting the bars I can almost lock the wheel ...

The other one is troublesome ?

The lever pulls all the way up to the bars and only retards?

I think at first it was inching the cable locking thinkie up the cable so I removed it from the lever and tighten it with 2 spanners and tried again .

No better.

Also I seem to have a problem where the ferrule at the adjuster end is tight in the barrel so the only way to move the threaded part [ that clips in the back plate ] up or down the adjuster is to un-clip them both move it and clip them back up again.

Cable management is currently with a few reusable cable ties ?

I wonder if either the cable outer is not good enough or I have insufficient cable ties to stop flexing of the outer ?

Or there is another problem.

regards Paul

Does the "Iffy" SA brake function correctly with the cable disconnected from the backplate lever arm ?

Kevin

Will try tomorrow.

I may just swap the hub ends of both cables over and see what happens.

regards Paul

Roy

Roy

Not my usual riding style , lots of gentle miles from now on promise.

Paul

Well done 12 miles on it , everything seemed to be hunky dory .....

However in the last 1/4 miles I noticed it had some weird behavior when braking ?

Bit of experimenting narrowed it down to the left rear wheel , it snatches when braking enough to cause the steering to twitch in time with the snatches.

The same side that would not free wheel freely.

Sound familiar ?

regards Paul