406 tubeless rims
Printed From: BHPC Forum
Category: Public: Open to anyone
Forum Name: Building
Forum Description: Anything to do with building HPVs
URL: https://forum.bhpc.org.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=6912
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 2:16am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 406 tubeless rims
Posted By: LWaB
Subject: 406 tubeless rims
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 11:12pm
| The young lady wants me to convert her Moulton to tubeless. Schwalbe Pro One look to be suitable but I don't know of tubeless-compatible rims for 406-28 tyres. What rims are out there and who has played with tubeless 406 stuff already? I'm reasonably happy coping with 700C tubeless but are there traps for the unwary player trying with 406? |
Replies:
Posted By: legs_larry
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 12:24pm
|
I remember Paolo Baldissera having hours of fun trying to get 406 Pro Ones to stay seated at Battle Mountain in 2017, though I think he eventually succeeded. He reckoned they hadn't been unfolded for long enough to straighten the beads out properly. I don't know what the rims were, though. ------------- ==================== a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds |
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 1:19pm
|
Ginkgo have nice tubless 406 rims. Be warned though the difference that makes the tyres themselves tubeless is that they have carbon fibre beads that don't stretch and that makes them harder to put on the rim especially on the smaller diameters. (Ask Chris) Good tyres though. Probably a good idea to get one of those tools that give more leverage for putting on tyres.
Roy
|
Posted By: farwer
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 1:37pm
|
Not sure whether it works on tubeless tyres but I use the 'Kool Stop Tyre Mate' and never had any problems with the narrow 406 tyres since. There are similar models from other companies as well. Jochen
|
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 4:01pm
|
Yes that's what I have. Roy
|
Posted By: Kim
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 10:39pm
|
FWIW, I've had no real problems with Pro One (admittedly using a lightweight inner tube) on a 406 Kinlin XR240. It's a bit on the tight side, but it goes on just fine. OTOH, I've yet to manage to get one to seat on a 559 rim successfully. I've tried three different rims and two different rim tapes, lubrication, harsh language, massive overpressure, getting a replacement tyre because by that point I was sure it was a manufacturing defect, etc. I've given up and gone back to Durano. If anyone knows of a combination that actually works, I'd be interested to hear about it... |
Posted By: LWaB
Date Posted: 30 May 2019 at 6:39am
|
The only rims I've found to date that might fit the bill are https://www.ginkgo-veloteile.de/ginkgoshop/en/Wheel-Accessories/Rims/Rims-20-Inch-406-mm/Gingko-21-406-tubeless-282gr.html and http://store.velocityusa.com/p/a23-20-406-msw/rims_recumbent_20-406?pp=12 Has anybody here actually used either of these rims tubeless? |
Posted By: LWaB
Date Posted: 30 May 2019 at 7:23am
|
I have about a dozen different types of tyre levers, including 3 types of tyre jacks. I also recommend tyre jacks for fitting tight narrow tyres but the IceTools Pincers broke the first time I tried them. Is there a problem of small tubeless tyres being less effective in real world use because of a lack of air volume or sealant volume, when compared to big wheels? |
Posted By: MatthewLR
Date Posted: 03 June 2019 at 8:58pm
| I have ridden tubeless for over a year on non tubeless 406 rims without any trouble. It may not work on all rims but I use ICE standard Jet Set and Alex DA16/22 rims with schwalbe rim tape and valves. The only issue I had setting it up was the tyre not initially sealing well enough to blow onto the rim, once its up once its will inflate easily. This was fixed on my second set of tyres by simply using two wraps of rim tape. As a test dummy for this set-up I have run them with pressures as low as 20psi without any trouble in the corners (other than understeer). Happy to give more details of my setup if you like. |
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 04 June 2019 at 3:51pm
Daniel Fenn and Richard and Veronika Schaffenroth all had 406 tubless on the front wheels of their Velomobiles and I know Richard had a puncture on the ride back to the camp site that sealed straight away. I'm on my second season third tyre of running a Schwalbe Pro 1 with a lightweight tube on the back of my Kingcycle. 28 - 540 and that goes on reasonably easily and seats well without issue. Grips well on the track and road. Roy
|
LWaB wrote:Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 06 June 2019 at 7:24pm
What was the problem with the seating Kim? I've just put the 28-559 onto the new rim for the Great White and it was very hard. The most difficult part was getting the first bead onto the rim. Took two people and the Kool Mate with brute force. The second bead I managed on my own with the help of the Kool Mate but it is not as perfectly equally seated as I normally get. It looks to be about a couple of mm out at one point looking at what I take to be the seating mark on the tyre. Does anyone think it matters? I've had no success in reseating it. Just seems to take that position. It is so tight on the rim though I can't see it ever coming off. I think if I was running it tubeless it would seat better possibly. But I've read it's not advisable to run tubeless with rim brakes because they heat the tyre up which can cause it to come off. Hard to imagine anything making them come off with that degree of tightness though. All the best Roy  |
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 06 June 2019 at 7:43pm
I just noticed that they tyre is equal on opposite sides but not all round. On both sides where there is the Pro 1 logo it is out and where there is no logo it is seated where I expected.  Roy
|
Posted By: Kim
Date Posted: 06 June 2019 at 8:53pm
Yes, that's exactly the problem I was having. Result is enough of a bulge (5mm or so) that any power savings from the fast-rolling tyre are cancelled out by incessant ratting of the rider's BRANEZ/fillings/eyeballs/etc:   (Rim pictured is a Mavic XM117.) When a Durano is fitted, the moulding line below the logo is visible all the way round the tyre. |
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 06 June 2019 at 9:15pm
|
Thanks Kim. Looks to be in exactly the same place as mine as well. It's strange because my 28-540 fitted just fine and without issue with a tube. All the best. Roy
|
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 07 June 2019 at 8:29pm
|
Kim, I have improved the fit somewhat by deflating then taping the bumps down and reflating the tyre. The idea being to push the tyre further down on the rim at that point when it's re-inflated. It's about 1.5 mm out of round now instead of 3 mm. I've ordered a Continental Grand Prix slick though to see how that fits. I notice it's a higher pressure tyre than the Pro 1 so it may have less rolling resistance. All the best. Roy  |
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 08 June 2019 at 2:16pm
|
Overnight the tyre has improved and is now 1 mm if that out and looks pretty well seated correctly. I did read up on the Schwalbe web site and they say to use soapy water or their easy fit solution to fit the Pro 1. I must confess I was thinking in standard tyre fitting mode because I was fitting a tube. They say the Pro 1 has a special shaped bead to make it seal against the rim in tubeless mode. I have some Easy Fit as well. I'll make sure I use it next time. Roy
|
Posted By: RoyMacdonald
Date Posted: 10 June 2019 at 7:01pm
|
I just did the 406, and dry the first bead looked to be as hard as the 559 was, so I got out the Easy Fit and I was able to put the first bead on the rim by hand. Then I did the second bead on my own with the aid of the Kool Tool. Took a fraction of the time the 559 did with two people. However the tyre is out of true in exactly the same way the 559 was, and in the exactly the same places. At the logos. I seated it equally at low pressure but when I pumped it up it went out of place again. I've pumped it up to full pressure and will look at it tomorrow. They are designed to be popped into place at over 200 psi and that is how Daniel Fenn and co were putting theirs on. Maybe that has something to do with the issue? Tempted to run them tubeless even though I'm using rim brakes. I could fit one of Mike's mono forks on the front which would have a disc brake mount on I guess. I did take the precaution of using a rim brake hub for the wheels so that I could use the rims on the Fujin if I wanted to. The rear frame of the D6 is not at all straightforward for the fitting of a disc though. Roy
|
Posted By: LWaB
Date Posted: 13 July 2019 at 10:56pm
|
It seems that Ginkgo have another tubeless 406 option https://www.ginkgo-veloteile.de/ginkgoshop/en/Wheel-Accessories/Rims/Rims-20-Inch-406-mm/Fratelli-FX2035-Air-20-406mm-320gr.html though 129EU per rim is a bit noticeable. Several velomobile folk run narrow tubeless tyres successfully and some useful advice can be found at http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=146429 |
Posted By: Kim
Date Posted: 30 March 2022 at 8:30pm
Belated followup to this: I've finally taken the plunge and muked about with tubeless. Findings: Kinlin XR240 + 28-406 Pro One (same tyre and rim I've been running with a lightweight tube for a couple of years), seated itself perfectly with a *whump* (with none of the persuasion required to get it to seat properly with a tube). Sealed shortly afterwards. Has been holding at about 90PSI or so for several days. Mavic XM117 + 28-559 Pro One, which I'd previously given up on in favour of a Conti Grand Prix. Again, this seated itself perfectly with a *whump* *BANG-BANG!* *Psssssth...*. Unfortunately I couldn't achieve a proper seal at the valve, even after I noticed and removed the plastic insert in the hole, and tried a couple of different shapes of tubeless valve (and the valve cut from a dead inner tube, because why not), and re-applied the tape. The problem seems to be the deep central channel in the relatively narrow rim complicating the seal around the valve. Alex DV15 + 28-559 Pro One. Ultra-violence required to get the tyre onto the rim. Seems much more promising in the valve department, and after a bit of messing around, I thought I'd persuaded it to seal, but it had deflated by the time I went downstairs to check the type of rim. Further sleuthing required to work out what's leaking. From this I conclude: - Seating a tubeless tyre isn't the same as seating a tyre with a tube. Not sure if the difference is the lubrication effect of the sealant, or that the air pressure works to push the tyre up the rim more when not constrained in a tube, but it's definitely a lot easier. - Flat-bottomed rims are better for the valve to seal against. Avoid trying to fit Presta valves in Schrader holes. Conical ones will fit the hole, but are prone to wobbling and breaking the seal when you attach a pump. - Narrow rims and wide valve ends mean the bead ends up sitting on top of the valve and the air blows through the gap, so the tyre never inflates. - Tubeless tape is finicky. Correct tape width and clean surfaces help, but it's easy to ruin it with tearing at the valve hole or wrinkling the tape while fitting a tight tyre. - All this ****ing around it significantly less stressful if you have a compressor that can dump a load of air into the tyre quickly. - Tubeless schmoo is basically thin Copydex, and does much the same thing when allowed to dry on the back of your hand.
|