So what happens when a rule is broken now? Does the person organising become financially responsible given that we rely on the honesty of our members racing to say whether a motor is working or not? We are allowing e-bikes to be on the track. It seems to me that it's a question of trust here. Like we trust people not to ride having taken drugs or cheat any other way. There seems to be a forgotten fact that faired bikes are faster than electrically assisted ones anyway. The MTB clubs must have sorted the issue to the satisfaction of their insurers otherwise they could not be holding e-bike races.

All the best.

Roy

This is more like riding without a helmet (our liability insurance is actually silent on the matter of helmets, but they're a requirement for use of most of the tracks) or chainring guard.  If helmets and chainring guards were as easily inspected as bottom bracket bearings.

The only way I can reasonably see this working is that either we insure ourselves as an unrestricted motorcycle event (which would certainly limit the tracks we could use), we somehow insure ourselves against people cheating (doubt that's even possible), or we somehow come up with a watertight scrutineering process (perhaps as a commercial contract with some entity we could sue).

As for speed, my point was it's only a useful indicator some of the time.  If someone's doing 25mph on gaspipe handcycle, that's probably an unrestricted motor.  If they're doing 25mph in a Milan SL, we don't know if that's a reasonably strong rider carrying a motor that cut out after the first corner, or an unrestricted motor doing all the work.  Regardless, the insurance issue is the same if they're doing 1mph.

(With my time-team hat on, Steve winning serves as a useful error check for the timing system.  If he's not in first place, it usually means the minimum lap time needs adjusting.)

I often get pulled over by the police in my Velomobile but they reluctantly agree it is a bicycle class machine after they inspect it. Even if it had a motor as long as it met the rules for bicycles that are in place they would have to. There are some Velomobiles that are sold with legal motors and they are all software/sensor restricted, the same as unfaired bikes. Maybe it's worth asking John Williams his thoughts on the matter as he imports and sells them.

Hi Alan

Thanks for the heads up.

All the best.

Roy

I'm a rules man Alan, so why tell me how to cheat them? 

Here is an MTB e-bike race rule. Could having our members sign some such clause not solve the liabilty problem for us? I would love to race with the freedom the MTB guys have. If only my back would let me.

He is still servicing Velomobiles at least. Not sure about the sales situation as he is not talking about that in his reply. He may explain more when I see him.

All the best.

Roy

UCI E-MTB seems to have the same 250W/25kph restriction.  How do they manage that legally?  Do they have teams of sock-inspectors keeping a keen eye out for anything that isn't the latest Bosch?  Or are they effectively insured to run a motorcycle event?

It may be that the ultimate answer is "here's the insurance we need, sadly the club can't afford it"

I'm guessing that they rely on the honesty of riders in combination with them signing the clause about not holding the ornanisers responsible. Their races certainly look fun and I don't see anyone holding back. Reminds me of when I used to ride an MTB to work every day down the stairs and through the woods at Crystal Palace along the old railway track.  

I can imagine that a few people might get a thrill out of subverting The Rules.

But in a HPV context, mostly I can see people buying conversion kits made in countries that don't have these restrictions for road use (or simply not configuring the limiting if it's an optional setting), and entering our race while being unaware that they're not compliant.

IANAL, but the concern isn't so much the person breaking the rules holding the organisers liable if they crash, so much as an innocent third party eg. a random dog-emptier injured after wandering onto the track - their lawyers could quite reasonably go after the person who hit them, the event organisers *and* the venue.

That's exactly it: our insurance is third-party liability and nothing else. We are required to be insured against non-competitors claiming against us for loss or injury caused at one of our events.

Think of Rider A barrelling round the last bend clockwise at Hillingdon, spinning off, and breaking the leg of someone standing watching. They're off work for six months and claim against the club for loss of earnings. We send the claim to our insurers who check the details and (hopefully) pay out. Club survives.

Now imagine Rider B who, unknown to us, has tweaked their e-assist to 500W. They spin off the same bend, hit the same bystander, who makes the same claim. Insurance company checks the details, has the offending bike checked, and refuses to pay up because the e-assist isn't road legal (as specified in our policy). Club's officers have to pay out and end up losing £10,000s.

Now can you see why the committee want to avoid any possible risk of people tweaking their e-assists? It's nothing to do with speed, or fairness. We wanted to allow e-assist, but until we have an absolutely, or even reasonably sure way of checking e-bikes then we literally can't afford to take the risk, and it's unfair to expect us to.

Kim, I'd be dissapointed if there wern't 90% of members subverting the rules as it's a club that was set up for for people who want to subvert the rules. (UCI) 

We do have a member(s) who are authorities on e-bikes software and we could see if they would check their bikes to see if they were only capable of running their original software. It would mean limiting the e-bikes to their brand (ICE) of course. It would suit Natalya though which was why I voted for including the class in the first place.

Has there been much of an issue with lawyers who could quite reasonably go after the person who hit them, the event organisers *and* the venue. I can't remember any incidents like that myself despite being so old and involved with the club for about 40 years.

Unfortunatly I won't be able to do Hillingdon now as we are having a family event on that day as it's a bank holiday, and my daughter has decided. She's a senior nurse in a nursing home and usually works at weekends as they have to have a senior nurse there, so I like to take advantage of the days she does not work. We could have had a discussion about work arounds to enable e-bike racing. My son has just moved back here as well so the farm is seeming pretty full at the moment. It's hard to find a place at the dinner table somtimes and all the talk is about exercise as the fittness bug seems to have spread from me to the rest of the family.

Good luck with the racing.

All the best.

Roy