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Adrian Setter
BHPC Member
Joined: 04 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1606
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Topic: Race points system Posted: 22 June 2005 at 1:31pm |
In the Spring 2005 BHPC magazine (issue 80) Mike Burrows wrote:
"I would also suggest changing the points system back to what it used to be; at the moment it favours consistency over performance, for example two fifteenth places equals a win! also everyone gets some points which makes them meaningless in themselves whereas stopping the points at say 8th place gives people something to race for, as in F1."
This would be unlikely to affect my own placings in the Championship, so I think I'm in a pretty good position from which to disagree most passionately.
Stopping the points at 8th place gives everyone unlikely to place 8th or above in a class absolutely nothing to race for. The current points system gives full scope for those not in the running for a podium place to get enjoyment from their racing by having individual rivalries; it's quite possible that, had it not been for the scraps I had with Paul Whitehead in my first full season, I would not have caught the racing bug.
Also worthy of mention is that the old system did, in fact, give everyone points (2 for going the distance, 1 for a DNF), making (in 2001) turning up three times and pootling around waving at the spectators worth two eleventh places; now, I think that did devalue the efforts of middle-ranking racers.
There is, perhaps, a case for giving higher places greater weight, by reducing the points awarded on a steeper curve than currently (was the current system devised for larger - continental? - fields?), but I'm quite sure that the principles of the current system are the right ones.
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Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
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AlanGoodman
Admin Group
Club Chairman
Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 8036
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Posted: 22 June 2005 at 2:41pm |
I agree with Adrian.
Remember that those of us competing in Sports/Junior or whatever also like to have a look at how we are doing in the overall (open class) list just out of interest.
If only the top 8 scored points most of us would never even make it onto the list
If we really want to be like F1 then all we have to do is make anyone on Michelin tyres to pull over after one lap...
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gNick
BHPC Member
Joined: 22 February 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1977
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Posted: 22 June 2005 at 3:23pm |
It's one of MBs current rant, along with class rules, I personally favour consistency over points but then my current performance is so low it will make no difference... I suggest a compromise, if Mike finishes below 8th he won't get any points!
Bit of a problem with the tyre bit is where do you get Bridgestone 406/700c tyres?
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gNick
"I'm afraid it's definite, Mrs Banker - your son has bicycles"
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Andrew S
Admin Group
Joined: 14 March 2005
Location: Hornsea, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2433
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Posted: 22 June 2005 at 3:50pm |
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I agree with Adrian too. I thought about raising this after reading
Mike's article but wasn't sure of etiquette, given that Mike almost
certainly doesn't see the Forum.
Points are valued by almost everyone who races, including those who are
never going to be in the top rank of any class, however it's defined. I
would support a more rational pts/position function than the existing
linear one though.
Mike seemed to be suggesting a decreasing function, with larger
differentials between the high positions then the low ones. Most simple
functions are much too steep at low numbers, leading to huge
differences between eg 1st, 2nd, and 4th. However it should be possible
to devise a reasonably simple formula which feels fairer than the
current one - I suggest a quadratic because of a largely spurious
association with air resistance: you've put in squared power to go
faster then the person behind you so you get squared points in return.
AndrewS
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Quam celerime.
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Andrew S
Admin Group
Joined: 14 March 2005
Location: Hornsea, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2433
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Posted: 22 June 2005 at 3:57pm |
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PS: I speak as an obvious beneficiary of the present system, having for
several years finished the season well above many (including Mr B) who
could beat me soundly in a race. Sorry - this is probably all my
fault...
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Adrian Setter
BHPC Member
Joined: 04 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1606
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Posted: 22 June 2005 at 4:55pm |
Andrew S wrote:
I would support a more rational pts/position function than the existing linear one though. Mike seemed to be suggesting a decreasing function, with larger differentials between the high positions then the low ones.
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The rate at which points are reduced for placings in different parts of the field is actually far from linear - it's much greater between the higher placings. Legs or gNick could, I'm sure, give a complete run-down of the system, but the fullest extent to which it's ever been used by BHPC was (I think) for the magnificent turn out of 55 racers at Hillingdon this year. From this, the points difference for each position in relation to the next highest is:
Posn Diff 2-5 -79 6-10 -51 11-20 -31 21-40 -19 41-? -13
Beyond ?
But even with 55 racers, the slowest was still getting 554 points in the Open class, so there is scope to steepen the curve a bit.
Edited by Adrian Setter
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Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
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Adrian Setter
BHPC Member
Joined: 04 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1606
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Posted: 22 June 2005 at 5:00pm |
Andrew S wrote:
PS: I speak as an obvious beneficiary of the present system, having for several years finished the season well above many (including Mr B) who could beat me soundly in a race. Sorry - this is probably all my fault... |
Probably not...
If you place higher in the Championship than faster riders it's because they haven't scored points in enough rounds, which was a feature of the old system, too.
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Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
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frisby
Visitor (new)
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: 23 June 2005 at 9:07am |
I was also quite annoyed with the suggestion that only the top 8 finishers would get points in the races.
I will never win a race or even come in the top 8 so, if these changes come about, why would I bother to turn up? Following on from that, why would I be a member of the club?
At the moment I really enjoy the race meetings and look forwards to the events. Seee you at Darley Moor.
Steve Frisby. #109 
The slowest rider of all???
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frisby
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legs_larry
BHPC Member
Joined: 09 March 2005
Location: London Town Devine
Status: Offline
Points: 1554
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Posted: 23 June 2005 at 9:08am |
The system as it stands now was devised by Stevie D for the Worlds in 2001 and adopted for general use in 2002, mainly as it reduced the likelihood of forty-seven people all tying for 33rd place in the championships. Changing the distribution is trivial, but I wouldn't want to see a return to an F1-stylee system, as there would be too many Minardis.
"The winner of each NASCAR race receives 180 points. The runner-up in each event scores 170. From there, the point total declines in five-point increments for places two through six, points awarded drop four points per driver for positions seven through 11 and three-point increments separate drivers' points for finishers in 12th place or lower. The 43rd, or last-place driver, gets 34 points. "
is another way of doing it, though apparently it used to be possible for a NASCAR driver to win all but one of the races, come second in the other and still lose the championship because of the way other points are allocated for time spent in the lead. Happily we shall not be going there.
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====================
a bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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KevinJ
Committee
Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1079
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Posted: 23 June 2005 at 10:23am |
The problem seems to be having one points system for races where there are 55 people in and some of the classes where there are sometimes 2 or 3. Why not base the function on the maximum number of racers in the class in the previous year (say + a few). So open would have 60 in (If linear points would be something like 2000, 1970, 1940, ....)
Multitrack - with only say 10 would be 2000, 1800,1600,....
We can argue about the distribution used, but I think the principle seems fairer.
So second place would mean more points in the open class than the unfaired class and so on.
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Kevin Jenkins
Windcheetah
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