BHPC Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Public: Open to anyone > Racing > Etc
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Sports and Street Rule Clarification
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Starting a new topic? Please try and put it in a relevant forum (Riding, Building, etc) but if you're not sure it's better to post in any forum than not to post at all.


Sports and Street Rule Clarification

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message
Paul Goodwin View Drop Down
BHPC Member
BHPC Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2010
Location: Wirral
Status: Offline
Points: 139
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Goodwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sports and Street Rule Clarification
    Posted: 02 August 2011 at 9:59am
A pretty valid concern has been bought up about the eligability of certain machines to race in street and sports classes, in my case whether a Raptobike is suitable.

I have no real disagreement about the fact that a Rapto and similar bikes can be seen as a touch too low for entry into such a class. The problem is that there is no minimum seat height ruling, indeed the regulations state that entry is at the rider's discretion.

Unfortunately this creates a situation where it becomes a subjective opinion rather than objective fact. My proposal is to reintroduce a minimum seat height for the street / sports classes as of the beginning of next season to in order to prevent similar concerns.

I feel however that eligability should be frozen for this year, if a competitor has raced in a class with a machine that remains identical throughout the season, then they should continue to be allowed in the same classes. I'm not a particular fan of mid-season rule changes.
Back to Top
AlanGoodman View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Club Chairman

Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 8036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 10:01am
There has been a lot of discussion of Sports Class Rules in the past, and they usually end up adding confusion rather than reducing it!

Back to Top
Adrian Setter View Drop Down
BHPC Member
BHPC Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1606
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adrian Setter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 10:24am
When it just too late to liven-up the AGM agenda with the customary annual discussion on the subject, too... Wink 
 
I'll be back later with some comment, at a time when the evil squirrels aren't expecting me to be labouring in the nut mines.
Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
Back to Top
AlanGoodman View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Club Chairman

Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 8036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Adrian Setter Adrian Setter wrote:

When it just too late to liven-up the AGM agenda with the customary annual discussion on the subject, too... Wink 
 
 
I'm gutted about that as well... If this had come up two days ago we wouldn't have had time for any racing at Hillingdon... LOL

Back to Top
Adrian Setter View Drop Down
BHPC Member
BHPC Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 March 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1606
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adrian Setter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 1:26pm
The history of the Sports class is a tad murky, if not particularly long, being clouded by seemingly endless discussions, multiple proposals for rules and adoption at different times of different definitions - but, to make it even more fun, not all documented in one place.  There's probably a book in it, if any professional historians are reading.  But not, I imagine, a best-seller.
 
The original class definition was based on an eye-line height of 105cm, with an express intention of encouraging Kingcycles out of sheds and onto the race track.  The KC had not long gone out of production, and there might also have been a motive to encourage the sales of the most obvious replacement at the time, the Burrows Ratcatcher.  Still - if I recall correctly - Mike did provide prizes for a couple of years. 
 
No sooner was the ink dry on that rule than it was subverted by certain tall riders (Mr Larrington and me), who took bikes rather lower than the intended ones, sat the seats upright, screwed the suspension to maximum pre-load and thereby scraped inside the eye-line rule.
 
Sports class having been won by me, on a Hurricane, Alan and Dave Goodman - who I shall describe as being closer to Mark Cavendish's height than I am - quite reasonably expected to ride their Hurricanes as Sports, too.  At this point I lose the plot slightly, but the eye-line rule was dead and I think it was then that a seat-height rule came in.  I don't remember what the measurement was though, and I think you'd have to trawl old magazines to find out.  When I became CompSec, I didn't even remember that rule existed, which contributed to me inadvertently causing the first upset of my tenure.
 
I'm sure a Raptobike would never have met the eye-line rule, not even with a McDee or a Dutchman on board.  Similarly, I'm all but certain it wouldn't have passed the seat height rule.   On the other hand, there are those on the Continent proclaiming that "high-racers [large-wheeled, high-seated, extremely recumbent machines] are the new low-racers".  If they're right (personally, I don't think they are) we might expect an influx of such machines.  They would pass both versions of the height test,  but are they practical road-going machines?  The precedent there is that McDee decided he wouldn't enter his M5 high-racer as Sports.
 
The spirit that I have tried to encourage for the class is that it is principally for fun (hey, isn't that what our racing is for?), providing a feeling of competition for riders of bikes that simply can't win against the out-and-out race bikes.  That seems to have worked pretty well for the last two and a bit seasons. 
 
After all that ramble, we have two questions:
  • Should there be a definitive rule on eligibility, and what should it be?  My preference is to leave it as it is, but I'll happily go with the views of the people in the class, if they can agree on something else (as a rule for next season - I agree about mid-season changes).  AGM agreement isn't required for a rule change, but I have previously made undertakings along the lines that I will announce proposed rule changes at the AGM.
  • Under the current rules (see here), is a Raptobike acceptable, to Sports class competitors, as an entrant in Sports class?
 
 


Edited by Adrian Setter - 02 August 2011 at 1:30pm
Challenge Hurricane - MicWic Delta (Front half) - Burrows Ratracer
Back to Top
AlanGoodman View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Club Chairman

Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 8036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 1:39pm
Nicely summed up Adrian... The minimum seat height was set at 350mm for the 2006 race season...
 
 

Back to Top
ND4E View Drop Down
BHPC Member
BHPC Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2008
Location: Harrow
Status: Offline
Points: 195
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ND4E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 3:48pm
I agree with a minimum seat height for next season. But personally I think it should be low enough to include the Rapto as this is a very popular and great value for money current production bike and I'm sure there must be many more like Paul that use it as a daily bike. The old height rule was based on Kingcycle seat which was a popular production model at that time.
       This clarification could encourage other Rapto owners to have a go at racing or non owners to take the plunge (cheques payable to ND4E Mr.Rapto)
ND4E
Back to Top
AlanGoodman View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Club Chairman

Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 8036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 3:55pm

The 350mm seat height wasn't based on the Kingcycle... It was actually designed to include bikes such as the Challenge Hurricane (fairly practical bike which by pure coincidence was ridden by the person who proposed that height... Wink) but exclude bikes like the Optima Baron (where have they all gone by the way????)

Reducing it below that would allow a lot of the out and out race bikes and in my opinion would probably defeat the object of Sports Class...

Back to Top
ND4E View Drop Down
BHPC Member
BHPC Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2008
Location: Harrow
Status: Offline
Points: 195
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ND4E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 4:05pm
Most of the low racing bikes are a little lower than the Rapto so if you made the Rapto the minimum and measured to the mm I think it would encourage new entry into the sport and reflect the gradual lowering of seat heights. Appart from the high racers of course!
ND4E
Back to Top
AlanGoodman View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Club Chairman

Joined: 04 March 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 8036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2011 at 4:17pm
According to their web sites...
 
A Rapto seat is 270mm high
 
A Challenge Hurricane seat is 400mm high...
 
A Challenge Fujin SL seat is 330mm...
 
An Optima Baron is 340mm...
 
I really wouldn't want to reduce the minimum seat height to 270mm... Assuming a minimum seat height is reinstated... Confused
 
 

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.07
Copyright ©2001-2024 Web Wiz Ltd.