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Rules and Regualtions For E-Bikes

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RoyMacdonald View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 April 2023 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by ChrisH Alan Goodman wrote:

"What we’re saying is that the very small group of people who organise our events are
 not prepared 
 to risk their homes when they become personally
 liable because an event is not insured.

At the moment it is not possible for us to guarantee to the insurers that not everyone 
 who turns up
 with an electric motor is going to play by the rules."

On behalf of the BHPC Committee


So what happens when a rule is broken now? Does the person organising become financially responsible given that we rely on the honesty of our members racing to say whether a motor is working or not? We are allowing e-bikes to be on the track. It seems to me that it's a question of trust here. Like we trust people not to ride having taken drugs or cheat any other way. There seems to be a forgotten fact that faired bikes are faster than electrically assisted ones anyway. The MTB clubs must have sorted the issue to the satisfaction of their insurers otherwise they could not be holding e-bike races.

Kim said
"The problem is how we, as in whoever's organising the race on the day (who doesn't necessarily know anything about ebikes, and is otherwise busy worrying about the sign-on list and first aid kits and extension leads and who's got the key to the gate and so on), determine whether a given system actually complies with that standard, given that in some cases the difference between a legal motor and a non-legal motor is a software setting.  We simply don't now how to police this effectively.  It's easy enough to disqualify someone who achieves an unrealistic speed on the track, but they've already invalidated our insurance by that point."
Kim, No e-bike goes faster than the Beano, are we going to disqualify Steve because he goes too fast. No, don't reply to that!Embarrassed
All the best.
Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2023 at 4:40pm
I don’t see how we can make this any clearer.
It has nothing to do with speed. It’s about machines that are legally classed as motor vehicles. We can’t insure our events if they take part so we can’t allow them on the track. Any human powered machine is fine so we would allow E-Bikes with the battery removed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2023 at 5:58pm
Exactly.  Any other kind of 'cheating' (scare quotes because it's nearly always accidental) would be between the competitor and our race rules; it doesn't affect the insurance situation, and can be dealt with with a retrospective class-change, non-placement or disqualification.

This is more like riding without a helmet (our liability insurance is actually silent on the matter of helmets, but they're a requirement for use of most of the tracks) or chainring guard.  If helmets and chainring guards were as easily inspected as bottom bracket bearings.

The only way I can reasonably see this working is that either we insure ourselves as an unrestricted motorcycle event (which would certainly limit the tracks we could use), we somehow insure ourselves against people cheating (doubt that's even possible), or we somehow come up with a watertight scrutineering process (perhaps as a commercial contract with some entity we could sue).


As for speed, my point was it's only a useful indicator some of the time.  If someone's doing 25mph on gaspipe handcycle, that's probably an unrestricted motor.  If they're doing 25mph in a Milan SL, we don't know if that's a reasonably strong rider carrying a motor that cut out after the first corner, or an unrestricted motor doing all the work.  Regardless, the insurance issue is the same if they're doing 1mph.

(With my time-team hat on, Steve winning serves as a useful error check for the timing system.  If he's not in first place, it usually means the minimum lap time needs adjusting.)


Edited by Kim - 01 April 2023 at 6:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2023 at 6:43pm
Maybe I'm just missing the point but the Government decides on whether a bike qualifies as a bike and not the insurance companies. 

I often get pulled over by the police in my Velomobile but they reluctantly agree it is a bicycle class machine after they inspect it. Even if it had a motor as long as it met the rules for bicycles that are in place they would have to. There are some Velomobiles that are sold with legal motors and they are all software/sensor restricted, the same as unfaired bikes. Maybe it's worth asking John Williams his thoughts on the matter as he imports and sells them.

I get several web magazines on e-assist bikes and they are the future for a lot of people and no one who imports, sells or makes them have illegal ones for sale in the UK. I have considered importing an EU legal one for use just on the farm as I find my back is too bad (Ankylosing spondylitis) for me to get around the fields by walking now, however it's not an easy option due to the restrictions that are in place in the UK.

Sorry if I'm a pain in not understanding.
All the best.
Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2023 at 7:13pm
I regularly have “E-Bikes” passing me on the road around here that are doing well in excess of 20mph with no pedalling.
You can buy a complete bike or the parts to build one very easily. There is actually a local chap (in Berkhamsted) who builds and sells them. The police seem no more interested in them than they are in the dozens of electric scooters that fly along the local roads and pavements.
Velomobiles without electric assist are of course fine in human powered events. If one turns up with a motor they will have to remove (not just disconnect) the battery.
John is no longer importing or selling velomobiles and as far as I know he was never involved with E-Assist.
There is currently no UK importer/dealer for velomobiles.

None of this matters really though. We cannot currently allow machines in our events that are not entirely human powered.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2023 at 7:47pm
Hi Alan
Sad news about John. It was only last November he offered to import me a Snoek. He is still posting reviews on YouTube though. Anyway I've dashed off an email to him asking to clarify his current situation.
Thanks for the heads up.
All the best.
Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2023 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by AlanGoodman AlanGoodman wrote:

I regularly have “E-Bikes” passing me on the road around here that are doing well in excess of 20mph with no pedalling.
You can buy a complete bike or the parts to build one very easily. There is actually a local chap (in Berkhamsted) who builds and sells them. The police seem no more interested in them than they are in the dozens of electric scooters that fly along the local roads and pavements.
Velomobiles without electric assist are of course fine in human powered events. If one turns up with a motor they will have to remove (not just disconnect) the battery.
John is no longer importing or selling velomobiles and as far as I know he was never involved with E-Assist.
There is currently no UK importer/dealer for velomobiles.

None of this matters really though. We cannot currently allow machines in our events that are not entirely human powered.


I'm a rules man Alan, so why tell me how to cheat them? 
Here is an MTB e-bike race rule. Could having our members sign some such clause not solve the liabilty problem for us? I would love to race with the freedom the MTB guys have. If only my back would let me.
2.2.8 I understand and agree that, other than legal liability in respect of death or personal injury, B1KE, its employees, the land owner, local committee members and their representatives or agents accept no liability for any injury or damage resulting from use of the B1KEPARK or any of its facilities including but limited to, car parks, approach roads, cabins, push-ups, for cycling or any other activity undertaken, or for personal mishaps to myself or my property.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoyMacdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2023 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by RoyMacdonald RoyMacdonald wrote:

Hi Alan
Sad news about John. It was only last November he offered to import me a Snoek. He is still posting reviews on YouTube though. Anyway I've dashed off an email to him asking to clarify his current situation.
Thanks for the heads up.
All the best.
Roy
He is still servicing Velomobiles at least. Not sure about the sales situation as he is not talking about that in his reply. He may explain more when I see him.
All the best.
Roy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2023 at 1:48pm
As I said he’s no longer a dealer for them and is not importing or selling them anymore.
I really don’t blame him at all. Way more hassle than it was worth.
He’s still very much involved in HPVs of course. He’ll be at Hillingdon next week.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlanGoodman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2023 at 2:02pm
As for E-Assist, surely we have made it very clear to everyone now that there will not be an E-Assist class at BHPC events this year.
If that changes in future we’ll let everyone know.

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